Thanks. I did try to find them, but I only know espn, cbs, & yahoo. some of them didn't even have stats for Quarles in 2013. None of them had stats for him in 2012.
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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
Thanks. I did try to find them, but I only know espn, cbs, & yahoo. some of them didn't even have stats for Quarles in 2013. None of them had stats for him in 2012.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Most sites don't track stats for defensive players. It can be tough to find stuff. I use the NCAA stat website and Sports-Reference.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
That is a distinct possibility, but it is not an argument that should support drafting him #1-
Why would a team, with the ability to select any amateur in the world to play for them the next five years willingly select a player whose desire to protect his financial future was consistently greater than his competitive fire during 13 football games? That does not sound like the kind of intangible deficit conducive to greatness in the NFL. Though, it does sound like a very good insurance adjuster- to manage risk/reward without being swayed by emotion or circumstance. If I was State Farm, I'd be very interested!
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Since Clowney will almost certainly go in the top 5, several NFL GM's seem to agree with State Farm more than you.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If JJ Watt holds out I guess he isn't a team guy.
Who said anything about a holdout?
I made no argument regarding Clowney not being a "team guy" (hardly my point). I don't think highly competitive people can suit up to play each week and consistently decide to pull back their effort- essentially allowing themselves to get beat. That is behavior that defies the human experience. In the midst of a competitive situation, competitors compete hard- regardless whether they intended to three days earlier... I do not believe Clowney held back effort. I am suggesting that, if he did (if that is your explanation for his poor production), then he is not someone worth drafting in the first round, because he does not have the competitive edge needed to succeed in the NFL.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
We will see where he is drafted. It is ironic, Steel, that you would use teams drafting in the top five as supportive evidence. Does that mean that when the Texans draft in the top five, whomever they take is a good pick and you would be foolish to disagree with them?
I would think you would have a lack of respect for teams drafting high in the draft... When did you develop such respect for the following organizations?:
Houston
St. Louis
Cleveland
Atlanta
Oakland
Only the ones who were 2-14. The others have good GMs.
i missed your last post
Last edited:
have more respect for them than I have for you.
I do respect Dimitroff/Snead
The jury is still out on McKenzie/Farmer.
All of these guys are new to their GM gig. Smith not so much.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
That's cool,but could you post manny lawson and demotra moore stats when they played on the other side with mario williams and von miller. I'm pretty sure none of those players accumulated more sacks or tackles when they played with those guys. I could be wrong though.
bah007
Hall of Fame
2010:
Von Miller - 10.5
Damontre Moore - 5.5
2009:
Von Miller - 17
Eddie Brown - 4
2008:
Von Miller - 3.5
Cyril Obiozor - 3
2005:
Mario Williams - 14.5
Manny Lawson - 10.5
2004:
Manny Lawson - 7
Mario Williams - 6
2003:
Mario Williams - 5
Manny Lawson - 3
Enough of will he or won't he regarding Clowney's inclination to hustle...
Back to the original question...
if we get stuck with Clowney, I say we get the bestest OT on the board. Unless there's a dang good ILB still available like Van Noy.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Thanks a lot and I'm glad you found the info to prove my point. In college or the nfl, when you have 2 pass rushers,the designated best will get line slides until the other guy is proven to be a problem. When that happens, teams will situationally slide protection based on down and distance along with field position and score. If we use the mario- manny dynamic, what you see is what clowney/quarles should've been. This is why I call bs on the always doubled,always line slides to clowney. Quarles had shown he could get to the qb and be disruptive from inside. As a result,from what I watched, clowney was singled a lot and didn't win 1 v 1 matchups for the once in a decade talent. When mario and manny had that same dynamic, mario had 14.5 sacks and manny 10.5. Once teams realized manny could be guys,they started to play mario more honestly. They did that to clowney and he had 3 sacks and 0 forced fumbles.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I think it depends on what's available.
If we go Clowney, then we've got to look to see who's there.
Van Noy or Shazier for ILB, a Morgan Moses or Antonio Richardson for OT, a Stephon Tuitt for DE... or whatever QB is still on the board: Bridgewater (which would have been UNTHINKABLE when this thread started), Carr (which may be unthinkable now), Garoppolo, Mettenberger, Murray, McCarron, etc., heck even on of the top-flight OGs like Su'a-Filo or Yankey, or one of the TEs like Amaro or Niklas. And if Louis Nix drops into our laps? RAC would love him.
There's going to be some talented guys to choose from.
OT definitely has to be up at the top of the list of needs, but it depends on who gets drafted and how things fall. And we've got some powerful needs at QB, ILB, DE, and NT.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Didn't take much to prove a point to yourself did it..
Eye in da sky don't lie,lol.
I really hope the Falcons sell the farm to the Texans to get this guy.
I do and I don't. I'm starting to really want Clowney. The thought of him and Watt together is exciting. Of course now that I'm leaning that way it will never happen.
. If we do trade down we better get at least 4 picks one being a first next year.
I need the draftniks to step up and tell us what they think is fair mkt value to move up from #6 to #1.I do and I don't. I'm starting to really want Clowney. The thought of him and Watt together is exciting. Of course now that I'm leaning that way it will never happen.
CBS Sports speculates this trade...
Right now the Falcons have ten picks; nos. 6, 37, 68, 103, 139*, 147, 182, 220, 253*, and 255*. * = comp picks.
If you still believe in that value chart then we'd be getting shorted (3000 =/= 1600 + 530) unless we get an early (1st or 2nd) 2015 pick.
Thoughts??
Last edited:
I would want 6, 37, 68 and 2015 first that will likely be mid 20's
Texian
Hall of Fame
First you can't trade comp picks so take them out of the mix.
Next, the Falcons in 2011 at #27 (680 TVP) moved to #4 Cleveland (1600 TVP) a difference of 980 TVP. To move the Falcons gave the Browns #27 (680 TVP) + #59 (310 TVP) + #124 (48 TVP) + 12' 1st RD pick (800 TVP) + 12' 4th RD (50 TVP) = 1888 Trade Value Points (TVP).
Today to move from #6 (1600 TVP) to #1 (3000 TVP) that's a difference of (1400 TVP) Contrary to popular belief it should cost the Falcons more to move to #1 today than it did to from #27 to #6 in 2011.
How do the Falcons get to 3000 (TVP)? #6 (1600 TVP) + #37 (530 TVP) + 15' 1st RD pick (800 TVP) + 15' 3rd RD pick (160 TVP) = 3090 Trade Value Points (TVP).
There you go #6 to #1.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
I'd probably take less than most. I'd probably move for their 1 & 2 this year and either a 4th this year or 2nd next year.
Since I really like Clowney it would cost the Falcons #6/#37/#103 this yr and a 1st and 4th in 2015. Or no deal and the Texans pick Clowney to pair with Watt.
Since Smith doesn't like Clowney and the owner wants JM I expect the Texans to accept much less than this in a trade. A.K.A Get fleeced
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
This is where I'm at. Maybe an extra 3rd day pick just for kicks
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Me too, I would be delighted with that deal.
I know. I just listed them for completeness.
Porky
Hall of Fame
I am not sold at all on Clowney. Just not. He may be all that and a bag of chips, and I am onboard if he is the pick and all....but I'm with Kiwi basically.
I would be fine with swapping and getting their #2 and #3 this year. Or their #2 and #1 next year would even be better. We need a lot of good players, not just one.
At best (to me) he has a MW type impact. A little different player overall, but in terms of overall impact to me that's about as much as we can expect and as far as I know he doesn't play QB, so I don't care how good he is. He can be all-world but if we don't have a QB, it's all for naught.
And I think it's just as likely than not that he never comes close to living up to the pre-draft hype.
If I thought JD was going to have Mario Williams type impact, I'd be beating the table to draft the kid.
Mario was our pass rush. He was our defense. If we had Jj Watt, drafting Mario Williams would be a no brainer.
We had the best defensive player on our team last season & we went 2-14. Mario never had that kind of impact.
I'm with you guys; swap firsts plus their 2nd and 4th this year and first next year.
Less than that and I walk away from the table and take him myself.
But I start at #6, #37, #68, and next year's first. Clowney is interesting but I'd rather fill three additional spots than settling for filling just the one.
BullNation4Life
All Pro
No way I draft Clowney #1 over all...
my source that is a scout and is FOJH( Friend of Jimmy Hoffa)to the sister of the the guy that is the brother in law of his friends dad said he had a reliable source that Clowney had skinny elbows and therefore should drop in the draft...
I mean, skinny elbows is not good for a DE...
my source that is a scout and is FOJH( Friend of Jimmy Hoffa)to the sister of the the guy that is the brother in law of his friends dad said he had a reliable source that Clowney had skinny elbows and therefore should drop in the draft...
I mean, skinny elbows is not good for a DE...
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Despite the bone spurs he consistently refuses to have necessary surgery for.
I think most of us are in agreement that trading down , getting multiple picks this year and a 1st next is the way to go ....
Its what we do with that #6 pick that we may differ on , hell , I argue with myself over which QB I like most ....
I wouldn't have a problem taking one of the top QB's at 6. Honestly I wouldn't have a real issue with taking one of them at 1:1 , but getting the same guy at 6 you would have taken at 1 and getting a pocket full of picks in the process is ideal.
Johnny Bottled Water @ 6!!
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I have a friend who's uncle was Carlos Marcella's milkman that said Clowney can point guard and 1st base at a HOF level .
Shezza
Practice Squad
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Australian?
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Auckland.
Welcome to the board, there are a few other Australians that come around.
I'll watch it if its on but don't really follow it.
I guess I nominally root for the North Melbourne Kangaroos.
Jackie Chiles
Veteran
I'm pretty sure toasters kill more people every year than sharks do. For real.
Also on Clowney I thought it was a given that he plays weakside and rushes more.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Im sure toasters do...along with toilets ( see Sig ) , but toasters dont swallow people whole, rip them limb from limb, or rush into a frenzy at the first drop of blood. People dont have nightmares about toasters (most anyway) , and frankly, the movie JAWS wouldn't have been nearly as terrifying if you replaced the shark with a pissed off toaster.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Nah, I'm Texans first, then Houston Rockets in the NBA, then Arsenal football in the EPL and then New Zealand Warriors in the NRL.
HATE union.
Sharks are a more Australian thing, along with poisonous snakes and spiders. Why do people live there again?
Speaking of spiders, more people each year are killed by champagne corks than poisonous spiders.
As for Clowney, I personally think he'll spend a ton of time with his hand in the dirt playing in our Nickel and Dime packages.
I'd probably prefer him to play 3-4 end but that would mean we aren't two gapping.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Peshek: Edge Rushers 1.0Thursday, April 17, 2014
*
Pass rushers are a group that can easily plague an evaluator with small sample sizes. Watching four games of film on a pass rusher could show a player who constantly harasses the QB or never even comes close to accruing a hurry. Examining how a player pressures the QB on a per snap basis can alleviate some of that sample size pressure, giving true insight into a player’s consistency in getting after the QB. For the first group (this grouping has nothing to do with talent or perceived ranking), I’ve chosen to examine*Jadeveon Clowney
,*Kareem Martin
,*James Gayle
,*Demarcus Lawrence
*and*Anthony Barr
.
*
Putting together pass rush efficiency required me to go through and chart every snap where the players rushed the QB. Some sack totals may not line up with what’s listed as I’ve added and subtracted sacks I felt were mistakenly attributed. As always, use this as a complement to examining film rather than in its stead.
How well did they rush the passer?
*
The chart below represents pass rush efficiency for each of the defensive tackles. The metric PRR, pass rush rate, measures how often the pass rusher affected the QB in the form of a pressure, sack, or knockdown. PRR+ includes pass deflections at the line of scrimmage. The number represents on a per snap basis, how often they get to the QB – i.e., if PRR is 10 it means they affect the QB once every 10 snaps. Thus a lower number is better.
*
PRRMain**
- Right off the bat we can pick out that Clowney doesn’t have the most efficient pass rush rate, racking up a pressure on the quarterback once every 10.69 snaps. That’s not the end of the world for several reasons.
**** - Within this group, he clearly has the largest increase in PRR when it comes to adding in passes defensed. In addition, he managed to garner 20 hurries – more than both*Demarcus Lawrence
*and*Anthony Barr
.
**** - We know from his 2012 campaign that he was able to convert sacks, with a total of 13 that year. If he’s able to combine his propensity for pressures from 2013 and sacks from 2012- he’ll be a force.
*
-*Kareem Martin
*has the lowest PRR of the group, and thus was the most efficient pass rusher among this set of players. He by far took the most snaps, rushing the passer 333 times during the year while putting together a nice combination of hurries and sacks. The higher amount of snaps came from his ability to slide inside and rush the passer from a multitude of positions.
*
- A bit of a darkhorse as a pass rusher this year,*James Gayle
*came in slightly behind*Kareem Martin
*for second most efficient of the group. While he didn’t display the same versatility as Martin, his pure pass rush skills can’t be denied
*
-*Anthony Barr
*and*Demarcus Lawrence
*are interesting cases with regards to their distribution of pressures and sacks. Both had lower hurry numbers similar to their total number of sacks. I didn’t keep a strict tally of unblocked/ blocked pressures, but there’s some indication this ratio could allude to a higher number of pressures gained undeservingly.
*
*
Where did they rush the passer from?
*
It’s easy to watch a pass rusher and imagine they could pressure the passer from different spots on the field, but that’s not always the case. The following chart breaks down the position that they rushed from and how effective they were at doing so using the PRR stat.
*
RushLoc
*
- Clowney clearly took the majority of his snaps from the right end position, facing the opposing team’s left tackle approximately 85% of the time. In doing so he pressured the passer once every 12.24 snaps. However, on the 10% of snaps he took on the left side he was three times more efficient, hurrying the QB once every 4 snaps. There are a number of theories, weaker competition at right tackle, dominant side, better matchups – regardless he did extremely well at LDE.
*
- The only player in this group to take a significant number of snaps inside (30%),*Kareem Martin
*was extremely efficient in his efforts between the tackles. His inside rush garnered a PRR of 7.62 which was nearly identical to his 7.5 PRR on the left side. The versatility he displayed cannot be overstated.
*
- Among the players who took snaps at multiple spots,*Demarcus Lawrence
*was the most consistent. Nearly splitting his time evenly between the left and right sides, his PRR was just slightly better playing on the right side.
*
- Unlike Clowney who thrived on the left side in limited time, Barr did not fare so well against team’s right tackles with a 30 PRR or one hurry on 30 snaps.
*
*
What blocking help did they have to face?
*
Double**
- Clowney defenders will be the first to say that teams threw extra double teams his way when asked about his decrease in production. In this case, the numbers bear that out. He was double teamed on 8.9% of his pass rush attempts, but was chipped by a RB or TE on a whopping 16.7% of his plays. In total, he faced extra offensive blocking on 25% of plays – more than double some others in this group.
*
- Collectively Martin and Gayle faced the least amount of extra blockers, only seeing blocking help on approximately 12% of plays. However,*Kareem Martin
*did face a higher proportion of double teams relative to how often he was chipped than other players. That could be a function of his time spent rushing from the inside.
*
- Lawrence and Barr split the difference between Martin and Clowney, ending up rushing against an extra blocker 17% of the time.
*
How good were their opponents?
*
Here I’ve put together a metric I call Pressure Strength of Schedule (PSOS) that measures the quality of the teams each player accrued their pressures against. It’s a mix of sacks allowed by opposing offensive lines and Sagarin rankings in an effort to measure team quality. It’s not perfect, but I’ve been happy with the results when used in the past. The score ranges from 0-100 with 100 being the hardest possible schedule. Thus, a higher number means pressures were gained against tougher competition.
*
SOS**
- As was true with the previous chart measuring chipped and double teams, Clowney had the toughest road to garnering pressures. His SEC opponents gave him a strength of schedule that no one in this group even came close to.
*
-*Kareem Martin
*and*James Gayle
’s road through the ACC was certainly not a cakewalk, but didn’t provide the same challenge as the SEC did for Clowney. Ranging between 42 and 44 on the PSOS score, their scores are slightly below average compared to results from current and previous years.
*
- The PAC-12 put up a tougher slate of opponents for*Anthony Barr
*than the ACC did for others, but still fell short of the SEC by nearly 14 points on the PSOS scale. Although it was still substantially higher than*Demarcus Lawrence
’s schedule difficulty during his time in the MWC.
*
*
How did they rush the passer?
*
The following chart breaks down the final pass rush move on every snap that a player made when attempting to pressure the QB. By the final move, I mean – if a player starts outside and then quickly routes back inside – the final move will be ‘Inside’. I won’t comment on it, but it can give you a feel for rush diversity and play style for each edge rusher.
*
RushMove**
That’s the extent of this breakdown on the first group of pass rushers. You can direct any comments or questions to me on Twitter @NU_Gap, where I’ll also be updating on future articles including the second group of pass rushers.
Metrics article about pass rushers. Don't know how to post the charts,but here is the link: http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/46928/349/out-of-the-box
*
Pass rushers are a group that can easily plague an evaluator with small sample sizes. Watching four games of film on a pass rusher could show a player who constantly harasses the QB or never even comes close to accruing a hurry. Examining how a player pressures the QB on a per snap basis can alleviate some of that sample size pressure, giving true insight into a player’s consistency in getting after the QB. For the first group (this grouping has nothing to do with talent or perceived ranking), I’ve chosen to examine*Jadeveon Clowney
,*Kareem Martin
,*James Gayle
,*Demarcus Lawrence
*and*Anthony Barr
.
*
Putting together pass rush efficiency required me to go through and chart every snap where the players rushed the QB. Some sack totals may not line up with what’s listed as I’ve added and subtracted sacks I felt were mistakenly attributed. As always, use this as a complement to examining film rather than in its stead.
How well did they rush the passer?
*
The chart below represents pass rush efficiency for each of the defensive tackles. The metric PRR, pass rush rate, measures how often the pass rusher affected the QB in the form of a pressure, sack, or knockdown. PRR+ includes pass deflections at the line of scrimmage. The number represents on a per snap basis, how often they get to the QB – i.e., if PRR is 10 it means they affect the QB once every 10 snaps. Thus a lower number is better.
*
PRRMain**
- Right off the bat we can pick out that Clowney doesn’t have the most efficient pass rush rate, racking up a pressure on the quarterback once every 10.69 snaps. That’s not the end of the world for several reasons.
**** - Within this group, he clearly has the largest increase in PRR when it comes to adding in passes defensed. In addition, he managed to garner 20 hurries – more than both*Demarcus Lawrence
*and*Anthony Barr
.
**** - We know from his 2012 campaign that he was able to convert sacks, with a total of 13 that year. If he’s able to combine his propensity for pressures from 2013 and sacks from 2012- he’ll be a force.
*
-*Kareem Martin
*has the lowest PRR of the group, and thus was the most efficient pass rusher among this set of players. He by far took the most snaps, rushing the passer 333 times during the year while putting together a nice combination of hurries and sacks. The higher amount of snaps came from his ability to slide inside and rush the passer from a multitude of positions.
*
- A bit of a darkhorse as a pass rusher this year,*James Gayle
*came in slightly behind*Kareem Martin
*for second most efficient of the group. While he didn’t display the same versatility as Martin, his pure pass rush skills can’t be denied
*
-*Anthony Barr
*and*Demarcus Lawrence
*are interesting cases with regards to their distribution of pressures and sacks. Both had lower hurry numbers similar to their total number of sacks. I didn’t keep a strict tally of unblocked/ blocked pressures, but there’s some indication this ratio could allude to a higher number of pressures gained undeservingly.
*
*
Where did they rush the passer from?
*
It’s easy to watch a pass rusher and imagine they could pressure the passer from different spots on the field, but that’s not always the case. The following chart breaks down the position that they rushed from and how effective they were at doing so using the PRR stat.
*
RushLoc
*
- Clowney clearly took the majority of his snaps from the right end position, facing the opposing team’s left tackle approximately 85% of the time. In doing so he pressured the passer once every 12.24 snaps. However, on the 10% of snaps he took on the left side he was three times more efficient, hurrying the QB once every 4 snaps. There are a number of theories, weaker competition at right tackle, dominant side, better matchups – regardless he did extremely well at LDE.
*
- The only player in this group to take a significant number of snaps inside (30%),*Kareem Martin
*was extremely efficient in his efforts between the tackles. His inside rush garnered a PRR of 7.62 which was nearly identical to his 7.5 PRR on the left side. The versatility he displayed cannot be overstated.
*
- Among the players who took snaps at multiple spots,*Demarcus Lawrence
*was the most consistent. Nearly splitting his time evenly between the left and right sides, his PRR was just slightly better playing on the right side.
*
- Unlike Clowney who thrived on the left side in limited time, Barr did not fare so well against team’s right tackles with a 30 PRR or one hurry on 30 snaps.
*
*
What blocking help did they have to face?
*
Double**
- Clowney defenders will be the first to say that teams threw extra double teams his way when asked about his decrease in production. In this case, the numbers bear that out. He was double teamed on 8.9% of his pass rush attempts, but was chipped by a RB or TE on a whopping 16.7% of his plays. In total, he faced extra offensive blocking on 25% of plays – more than double some others in this group.
*
- Collectively Martin and Gayle faced the least amount of extra blockers, only seeing blocking help on approximately 12% of plays. However,*Kareem Martin
*did face a higher proportion of double teams relative to how often he was chipped than other players. That could be a function of his time spent rushing from the inside.
*
- Lawrence and Barr split the difference between Martin and Clowney, ending up rushing against an extra blocker 17% of the time.
*
How good were their opponents?
*
Here I’ve put together a metric I call Pressure Strength of Schedule (PSOS) that measures the quality of the teams each player accrued their pressures against. It’s a mix of sacks allowed by opposing offensive lines and Sagarin rankings in an effort to measure team quality. It’s not perfect, but I’ve been happy with the results when used in the past. The score ranges from 0-100 with 100 being the hardest possible schedule. Thus, a higher number means pressures were gained against tougher competition.
*
SOS**
- As was true with the previous chart measuring chipped and double teams, Clowney had the toughest road to garnering pressures. His SEC opponents gave him a strength of schedule that no one in this group even came close to.
*
-*Kareem Martin
*and*James Gayle
’s road through the ACC was certainly not a cakewalk, but didn’t provide the same challenge as the SEC did for Clowney. Ranging between 42 and 44 on the PSOS score, their scores are slightly below average compared to results from current and previous years.
*
- The PAC-12 put up a tougher slate of opponents for*Anthony Barr
*than the ACC did for others, but still fell short of the SEC by nearly 14 points on the PSOS scale. Although it was still substantially higher than*Demarcus Lawrence
’s schedule difficulty during his time in the MWC.
*
*
How did they rush the passer?
*
The following chart breaks down the final pass rush move on every snap that a player made when attempting to pressure the QB. By the final move, I mean – if a player starts outside and then quickly routes back inside – the final move will be ‘Inside’. I won’t comment on it, but it can give you a feel for rush diversity and play style for each edge rusher.
*
RushMove**
That’s the extent of this breakdown on the first group of pass rushers. You can direct any comments or questions to me on Twitter @NU_Gap, where I’ll also be updating on future articles including the second group of pass rushers.
Metrics article about pass rushers. Don't know how to post the charts,but here is the link: http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/46928/349/out-of-the-box