My comments didn't have anything to do with Keenum really. My point was that I think kubiak is really good at offense.
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted
- Thread starter chenjy9
- Start date
My comments didn't have anything to do with Keenum really. My point was that I think kubiak is really good at offense.
I don't think there's any arguing that Dre's a future HOFer. He is already at 20th all time in receiving yards. He could easily move into top 10 all time by the end of next season, the way Keenum's been slinging the ball. Just look at the list from 12th-19th all those players are retired and Reggie Wayne (11th) just tore his ACL. If he can finish this season with another 1500 yard performance and put together 3 more 1,000 yard seasons he could move into the top 3 easily in all time receiving yards by the time he's done. So if Dre can stay healthy and play at the level he has in the past couple of season for a few more years it'll be hard to argue against him, even with the low TD numbers (and Keenum may be able to make those TD's go up considerably).
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_career.htm
Last edited:
AJ only needs 9 more to catch up with HOF Art Monk.
Give him another year, and it is quite feasible.
When was the last time the crowd chanted Schaub's name, if ever?
Does anybody know?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
As a general matter crowds don't chant for starters. They chant for starters to be replaced.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
But Keenum was the starter last game.
So, nobody ever heard Schaub's name being chanted ever?
Do we have the people's choice at QB finally?
That would be awesome if Keenum can keep up his good plays so that the whole fan base (or the vast majority) can rally behind the team more cohesively.
It's good for the morale of the team, no matter who's the HC.
Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.
When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.
As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).
AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
With the new rules , I think the teams who play a wide open passing game and counter punch with the run are best . I think that's one of the Texans downfalls is playing like a lead is safe . That and missed FGs , pick 6s , elbows to the back of the head , hitting the QB out of bounds , and so on .
I don't care about first ballot, as long as AJ gets in, I'm happy.
Well I certainly agree. We are just going to have to be very patient about the process, all things considered. It honestly could be a very long wait.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.
At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).
I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?
It will help if the Texans can get him a bunch of TDs in the next few years.
15-20 TDs in 3-1/2 years or so will probably do it.
A trip to the SB will certainly help.
Great points, man, and I certainly hope that you are ultimately right with them.
To be honest, a lot of my perspective is reminding myself to be patient with the process as a Texans fan.
I'd be interested in seeing numbers, stats, and comparisons of QBs behind these WRs. Hopefully AJ can leap frog over many of those receivers for the off-the-field reasons you mentioned. He truly epitomizes all the good things that pro athletes can represent in so many ways. I cannot recall even a speeding ticket, much less any black mark on his career or reputation (even the fight with Finnegan was pretty much universally applauded).
eriadoc
Texan-American
I doubt there are any who played with a QB that never made the Pro Bowl or had a good year. Even Matt Schaub made a couple Pro Bowls. But to the heart of your question, Largent comes to mind.
EDIT - Looks like Dave Krieg never made a Pro Bowl. He never led the league in passing yardage or TDs, but did lead in INTs and fumbles a couple times each. Jim Zorn also quarterbacked for some of Largent's career and was equally unimpressive. So maybe Largent is the best example. But he had 100 TDs in 14 years. AJ has 59 through 10.5 games.
TexanBacker93
Veteran
I don't think you can put Schaub's unwillingness to let 'dre make a play all on him. The QB is an extension of the HC especially in our offense. He isn't allowed to make reads or adjust. He is supposed to run the play that is called and if we execute it will be a positive play. At least that's the theory. I don't believe Kubiak wanted Schaub to take those chances. He is conservative and would rather get the sure 3 (until this season at least) than possibly turn the ball over. Schaub ran Kubiak's offense. He wasn't a field general. He's was a middle manager.
Kubiak feels the pressure. He knows his job is on the line and he is taking the handcuffs off the offense for Keenum. He's giving him liberties that he hasn't given the other QBs recently. That being said, I think Keenum is a better QB at this point anyways regardless of what he is allowed to do. Schaub's skills (he did have some) have eroded quickly and I think the mistakes have effected his psyche as well.
I guess I should at least weigh in on the actual point of the thread now. Andre has still had a great career. I think him playing those years under Capers hurt more than the last few years. WR aren't going to get the majority of red zone looks in this offense. He still is on pace to be one of the top WR in receptions and yards and he's set records for back to back 1,500 yard seasons. He's done everything but score TDs and win the SB. I think QBs should be judged on SB wins more than WRs. Depending on what kind of offense or scheme a great WR can be nothing more than a decoy. I think voters know that he was one of the best at his position over the previous decade. His off the field antics won't hurt him and he's always been a professional (the black Irishman notwithstanding) on the field. He's done enough, but maybe a couple of good years with a different scheme wouldn't hurt.
Kubiak feels the pressure. He knows his job is on the line and he is taking the handcuffs off the offense for Keenum. He's giving him liberties that he hasn't given the other QBs recently. That being said, I think Keenum is a better QB at this point anyways regardless of what he is allowed to do. Schaub's skills (he did have some) have eroded quickly and I think the mistakes have effected his psyche as well.
I guess I should at least weigh in on the actual point of the thread now. Andre has still had a great career. I think him playing those years under Capers hurt more than the last few years. WR aren't going to get the majority of red zone looks in this offense. He still is on pace to be one of the top WR in receptions and yards and he's set records for back to back 1,500 yard seasons. He's done everything but score TDs and win the SB. I think QBs should be judged on SB wins more than WRs. Depending on what kind of offense or scheme a great WR can be nothing more than a decoy. I think voters know that he was one of the best at his position over the previous decade. His off the field antics won't hurt him and he's always been a professional (the black Irishman notwithstanding) on the field. He's done enough, but maybe a couple of good years with a different scheme wouldn't hurt.
mattieuk
All Pro
I think we witnessed a mixture of things against Indy.
Firstly, Case made some great throws - AJ kept stride and barely had to make an effort to get his TD catches. I've not seen as many long balls thrown as well to him to my memory.
Secondly, I think AJ may have (wrongly) benefited from defenses not taking him as seriously as a threat as they would have 3/4 years ago. Whilst I'm not in a position to relay specifics (I'm far too into the game to make rational analysis afterwards), Andre was far more productive in the first half, and in the second went missing. I'm not sure what changes Indy made in coverage, but I presume they focused on shutting him down.
Thirdly, the first TD was a great run route, but any team who gives up a TD like that is going to be pissed with the coverage. AJ should never have that much space around him on a football field.
I tihnk we'll maybe see a levelling out of AJ's production in the upcoming weeks - however I do like the third TD. Schaub seemed to always revert to throwing to the tight end, where, although the ball was well thrown and it was a relatively easy catch, Case gave AJ a chance to make a play, and to quote someone on this board (I forgot who) he took what he wanted, rather than what the defense were offering him.
Firstly, Case made some great throws - AJ kept stride and barely had to make an effort to get his TD catches. I've not seen as many long balls thrown as well to him to my memory.
Secondly, I think AJ may have (wrongly) benefited from defenses not taking him as seriously as a threat as they would have 3/4 years ago. Whilst I'm not in a position to relay specifics (I'm far too into the game to make rational analysis afterwards), Andre was far more productive in the first half, and in the second went missing. I'm not sure what changes Indy made in coverage, but I presume they focused on shutting him down.
Thirdly, the first TD was a great run route, but any team who gives up a TD like that is going to be pissed with the coverage. AJ should never have that much space around him on a football field.
I tihnk we'll maybe see a levelling out of AJ's production in the upcoming weeks - however I do like the third TD. Schaub seemed to always revert to throwing to the tight end, where, although the ball was well thrown and it was a relatively easy catch, Case gave AJ a chance to make a play, and to quote someone on this board (I forgot who) he took what he wanted, rather than what the defense were offering him.
This Keenum enthusiam will last about one or two more games; or more specifically, one or two more losses. Unless we start a winning streak, they will grow weary of Case too. And start calling for Johnny Football (just to pull a name from the air) to be drafted with our first pick.
The Case Keenum version of the Texans still suffers - as did the Matt Schaub version - from only playing well for 30 out of 60 minutes. Until he started throwing TDs to the other team, as least Schaub used the "good 30" to pull out some wins. Feel good stories only take you so far.
just sayin'...
The problem AJ will have is that they will discount the TD passes he catches from Case because Case is a system QB, isn't tall enough, doesn't have a strong arm and played in a weak college conference. They will reason that because Lee and SS said Case isn't 'all that' the TD catches from Case are just because of the 'system' and don't count like other QB to WR tandems.
In defense of Keenum, our defense gave up 27 points on Sunday. When Schaub was playing our defense gave up about 28 PPG, however about 10 ppg was a direct result of defensive/special teams scores. So if the defense only gave up the 18 ppg they were actually giving up in the first 7 games, we win this easily. That does even take into consideration 3 missed FG and the 4th and 1 failed conversion. So the opportunities were there, but I don't believe anyone can honestly blame QB play as the reason for this loss.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
On pro bowls I meant voted in to be one of the guys who goes without someone being injured or refusing to go. Schaub has none on that basis.
Krieg was a 3 time pro bowler ('84, '88 and '89) according to pro-football-reference.
I was really referring to those AJ may come up against but Largent is a good argument for him. Largent is already in the hall. He led the league in receiving twice. He did not have spectacular QB play. At this point in his career he had 80 TD's.
Compare TO. Never led the league. 3 seasons with pro bowler and hall member Steve Young, 3 seasons when Garcia went to the pro bowl, 1 season with McNabb in the pro bowl and 2 with Romo. 9 seasons total. That's a big leg up.
What do you think of this? LINK
That should be more than enough to disspell the idea that Kubiak was limiting where the QB could throw.
I've been a big supporter of the idea that maybe Kubiak was handcuffing Schaub, but this admission from AJ completely opened my eyes. Schaub is limiting this offense, not Kubiak. Schaub will take the safe route rather than throwing the dice, if given the choice. Schaub is also less than capable of making off schedule plays if he has to scramble or is pressured.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Another thing i noticed was Keenum shouting things to the O-Line and WR's, something we ratrely see Schaub do. I think Keenums ability to read the defense allows him to do such. So i think that Schaub was limited in what he did due to his own ability, not because Kubiak wouldnt let him.
Just like the fake spike, something we have never seen from Schaub before, and AJ said it was an option for them to do such.
Only thing i put on coaching is the play calling in the second half when we take or foot off the gas, i was watching Bill B of the patriots, they were winning by 20+ and he told his guys hey we are going to score some more. We need that mentality, of course who knows how the game would of been called had Kubiak not went down at half time. Cause it seems to me that Kubiak has more faith in Case than he did in Schaub and the play calls have seemed far more aggressive.
Just like the fake spike, something we have never seen from Schaub before, and AJ said it was an option for them to do such.
Only thing i put on coaching is the play calling in the second half when we take or foot off the gas, i was watching Bill B of the patriots, they were winning by 20+ and he told his guys hey we are going to score some more. We need that mentality, of course who knows how the game would of been called had Kubiak not went down at half time. Cause it seems to me that Kubiak has more faith in Case than he did in Schaub and the play calls have seemed far more aggressive.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.
I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.
I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.
Good points.
I'm a bit more optimistic about AJ's chances after reading your's and 'cak's perspectives. The HoF acts like off-the-field does not make a difference, but voters are human and obviously the take into account big picture stuff.
I think his consistently elite talent and work ethic in the face of an expansion franchise and not-elite QBs for his whole career, along with his body of work and obviously great reputation could combine to get him in quicker, and maybe even leap frog over some of the other receivers on the list.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Especially if he catches double digit TDs a couple times in the upcoming years.
Dread-Head
Hall of Fame
I heard plenty of people going " PLEASE RANDY PLEASE " make this kick .
And you guys in the stands probably heard me yelling:
" [letter between "E" & "G"]UUUUUCK! WHY DO YOU HAVE A JOB YOU CLUB FOOTED SON-OF-A-3ITCH!?!"
From home and I know I don't live anywhere NEAR Reliant. The Texans should HAVE to fire him. He should realize he could suck a Winnebago trough a coffee stirrer and just vuggin' QUIT the game of football. He had his day in the sun in college. He was given a shot in the pros and VUGGED it up. Now he needs to move on gracefully before a group of angry fans tries to pull a Nancy Kerrigan on him.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
So that was the sound I heard. I looked over at my brother who was watching the game with me and said "Do you hear that? That's the sound of ultimate suffering. I made that sound when the Oilers left Houston. Some poor long-suffering Texans fan out there makes it now."
Thought it sounded like you.
Dread-Head
Hall of Fame
My throat is STILL sore from that. Some cops came over because the neighbors complained, but the cop who arrived was a Cowgirl f
n so he was laughing at me rather than telling me to keep it down.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
This is something I've been saying (and I was a strong Schaub supporter.)
The way this offense is designed, someone should always be open. It's on the QB to read the defense and let that take him to the receiver that should be open. Back in the old days, I got down on HWWNBN because his definition of open was standing without anyone within 10 yards of the receiver AND the receiver looking back and making eye contact.
Schaub's definition of open includes throwing the ball to where the guy should be. He doesn't have to SEE the guy's open to throw the ball. BUT... there are some throws he's just not going to make because he doesn't trust either himself or the receiver OR he just doesn't see it as open. That's the definition of a game-manager QB. He's not going to make throws he thinks are risky. But for this type of QB to work, he's got to correctly evaluate the risks. Schaub has not been doing that since the end of last season.
Keenum's definition of open includes stuff that Schaub would never consider open. Keenum's willing to make more throws than Schaub is. He's willing to take risks.
Those same guys were open for Schaub but he wouldn't take the chance.
So... it's not Kubiak or his offense that's not going to take the risk and it never has been. Kubiak's offense, when run right, can be damned explosive. I just hope Keenum can keep it up and this week, I hope Dennison proves to be a better play-caller than he was last week.
To be clear about my message, my post wasn't intended to be an indictment of Case. I LOVE his gunslinger mentality and his infectious enthusiasm. The team seems to love it also.
Right now, the fanbase seems to love it.
All I'm saying that lovefest from the fans will evaporate if it doesn't soon translate into wins.
We fans are fickle like that.
...but I doubt that's news to anybody.
Dread, you DO know that the record for the longest field goal in NFL history is held by a man who's club-footed, right?? Sixty-three yards. It's been tied three times but never beaten.
Tom Dempsey of the New Orleans Saints.
...or was "son-of-a-b*t@h the insult??
In short, to label Bullock "club-footed" is giving him too much credit. He's not that good.
I've argued until I'm blue in the face (which is a really tough transition) that Schaub has been the guy making the reads and deciding where he felt he could be safest with the ball. It's hardly ever the play-calling. It's the decision and actions of the guy with the ball in his hand after the snap that makes the difference.
Schaub has become Capt. Checkdown which, in turn, made him more predictable.
He wasn't club footed, I don't think. He was born without toes on his right foot and without fingers on his right hand. IIRC, club foot deals with the foot being twisted or contorted.Dread, you DO know that the record for the longest field goal in NFL history is held by a man who's club-footed, right?? Sixty-three yards. It's been tied three times but never beaten.
Tom Dempsey of the New Orleans Saints.
...or was "son-of-a-b*t@h the insult??
In short, to label Bullock "club-footed" is giving him too much credit. He's not that good.
I like the analogy, though.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
He wasn't club footed, I don't think. He was born without toes on his right foot and without fingers on his right hand. IIRC, club foot deals with the foot being twisted or contorted.
I like the analogy, though.
well his shoe looks like a club, pretty sure thats where the term comes from
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
When thinking about the demise of Schaub, I keep thinking of the play on Thanksgiving where he throws the ball in the dirt, when there was no defender around him for miles.
The receivers seem to love playing for Case, because he makes plays FOR THE RECEIVERS by fighting to BUY MORE TIME for them. Schaub never could make plays for the receivers by scrambling or "throwing the receivers open" deep.
The receivers seem to love playing for Case, because he makes plays FOR THE RECEIVERS by fighting to BUY MORE TIME for them. Schaub never could make plays for the receivers by scrambling or "throwing the receivers open" deep.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I think that's very true. With Schaub under center you start counting the moment he takes the snap. At about 4 if he hasn't thrown the ball you pretty much know the play failed and he's going to either dump it to a well covered RB or (more likely) throw it away.
Trail.Blazr
Hooked up to a Kool-Aid IV
I know many agree. I think it's an attempt to control the clock and keep the ball out of the other teams hands, but when that conservative play calling ("turtling" as I've read in this forum) too often results in 3 and outs, you'd think after a few losses like that, it would become evident that maybe we just keep playing to our strengths rather than worry about what the other team might do. Given the apparent resurgence of an offensive pulse and our questions on defense, I'm praying they figure it out and start playing to our strengths rather than this ball control philosophy. The same oatmeal for years has gotten old.
eriadoc
Texan-American
It's only ball control offense when you can steadily convert on 3rd down. The Colts with Payton Manning were an example of playing to their strengths. At times people complained about them running up the score and passing in the 4th quarter, but that's what they were able to do. Rather than run the ball ineffectively and punt the ball, they decided to play to their strengths. Without the running game that the Texans had back in 2011, they really need to consider whether they're trying to control the clock or just turtling.
I love the fact that Case makes the deep throw. I don't think you can win in the NFL if you don't threaten the deep ball, because the DBs will sit on routes (see Matt Schaub pick 6)
That said, teams are now going to be gameplanning for Keenum. Maybe AJ can still beat them down the field. I do think that Kubiak has more options now and that will have a huge impact on this offense.
Keenum still has to improve on some things. He missed a lot of short slant routes. He recognizes the blitz, but doesn't make the right decision (or flat out misses the blitz).
All in all, I think when we have 2 healthy running backs, this offense will really shine. Arian Foster being out has really hurt this team.
That said, teams are now going to be gameplanning for Keenum. Maybe AJ can still beat them down the field. I do think that Kubiak has more options now and that will have a huge impact on this offense.
Keenum still has to improve on some things. He missed a lot of short slant routes. He recognizes the blitz, but doesn't make the right decision (or flat out misses the blitz).
All in all, I think when we have 2 healthy running backs, this offense will really shine. Arian Foster being out has really hurt this team.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
Lack of Touchdowns aside, I think Andre Johnson is pretty much a lock for the pro football Hall of Fame. If he has another three or four more strong seasons, I don't see how he will not get in. I'd love to see him win that Super Bowl ring most importantly.
At 2-6, our 2013 season is on the edge of disaster but I do believe we'll beat the Cardinals, Raiders and Jaguars during the next three games to reach 5-6 and be back in the race for the final wild-card spot in the AFC. We'll all take that I'm sure.
Even though it's still pretty bleak that we can beat the Broncos or Patriots at home, much less the Colts on the road (0-11 all time). So finishing 7-9 this season seems likely but you never know. Crazier things have happened before.
At 2-6, our 2013 season is on the edge of disaster but I do believe we'll beat the Cardinals, Raiders and Jaguars during the next three games to reach 5-6 and be back in the race for the final wild-card spot in the AFC. We'll all take that I'm sure.
Even though it's still pretty bleak that we can beat the Broncos or Patriots at home, much less the Colts on the road (0-11 all time). So finishing 7-9 this season seems likely but you never know. Crazier things have happened before.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Agree, it's been Schaub all along. He checks down short by nature, which shortens the field for the defense, and he can't extend a play with his legs.
Case in point, look at what Alex Smith has done to Dwayne Bowe. Alex Smith's conservative decisions have turned Bowe into a ghost. (3-time 1000 yard WR who had a 15 TDs just three years ago). Bowe is no AJ and one could argue Smith>Schaub today, but it's the same dynamic. Michael Crabtree was a "bust" until Kaepernick got the nod.
Game management is nice. But you need something more dynamic to contend for it all. I'm not sure if Case is the answer... but his play has shown us what "the answer" should look like. And it just doesn't look like Matt Schaub.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
The funny thing is , IMO , the league has zeroed in on this which means he's that predictable . I remember one game after a pick 6 , Kubiak reamed him and then Schaub threw a couple deep . He was making the defense cover 30 yards and not worry about spying the QB on a Boot .
We'll see if Schaub was afraid, or coached. It's been awhile, but Schaub has tossed it up for the big guy a time or two in the past. The last 'skins game comes to mind.
Schaub's done it a few times, but just doesn't do it regularly enough. How many times have you screamed at the TV because Schaub missed a wide open receiver and checked down? A lot for me.
I seriously doubt that Kubiak would ream Schaub for scoring too quickly or too often. TD's are much more important than TOP.
IMO, Schaub knows he doesn't have the arm to sling it like Case does, especially after his foot injury.