GP
Go Texans!
Correct: Both those guys are backups, essentially.
And I truly feel, 100%, that Sage is proving out to be just as capable a starter for THIS team as Schaub has been depicted as being.
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Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.
- Thread starter Dread-Head
- Start date
Correct: Both those guys are backups, essentially.
And I truly feel, 100%, that Sage is proving out to be just as capable a starter for THIS team as Schaub has been depicted as being.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Ok, fine but I've shown in the stats in page 4 that you are off about his play in those games.
It rubs me the wrong way because you are saying we were fed mularkey yet you admitted to ate it up while some of us said it wasn't true for 3 years. Now you are doing the same thing with Sage yet don't see it and are trying to throw it in our face. So how does that make sense?Obviously I'm not the only way thinking this. You are right, the circular reasoning has hit a point where there isn't much more to say.
Actually no. The only reason I'm in any of these arguments was within a week of Sage doing well you all were jumping on the "Sage should have been playing all along, Schaub is no good, we wasted draft picks" bandwagon. My whole argument all along was just to compare the two without the b.s. and look at the real stats without the hyperbole. I have done that yet keep hearing the railings of ALL of this horrible games while dismissing turnovers of Sage's, etc. I just think it is a b.s., back-up-loving argument. The funny part of it is I like Sage ALOT. Again, I just want the facts to be straight instead of the weak stuff I've seen thrown around which somehow makes one guy infallible.
Overall it is tiring to hear about one guy "tearing up" other teams when his stats are no better than the other one and the main reason we are winning is we are getting a complete team effort and having our D step up. I respect counter arguments on this board if everyone just takes in the whole picture. I definitely am impressed with Sage. I just am more impressed withg our team as a whole and think we have a good system for Schaub to play in and Sage to do what he is doing. We need both.
My work is done..thanks for having fun in this.
Maddict5
Hall of Fame
alrite ive actually been on nfl.com for the last hour look at clips of all our games so far this season.. i highly recommend everybody who thinks sage> schaub do the same because its easy to forget how good schaub was and how much more explosive our passing game was...
and look at sages other games..
i hate that i sound like im bashing sage cos thats not my intent at all.. its just to show why schaub should start over him imo
in 2 of his 3 starts (broncos and raiders) were against terrible run D's which meant we had a legit running threat that those teams had to respect giving sage more time etc and all that means we get to run the denver offence so to speak
however in those two games:
sage made a stupid throw into double (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29322&season=2007&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&week=REG9 41 secs into the second vid if any1 wants to se) and triple coverage something schaub has been guilty of aswell.
v the titans- sages best game eventhough he threw 4 ints.. how much did the tacks hammering us and possibly easing up have to do though?
against the bucs he had a stupid fumble too
and in the 3 games hes won he threw for 181, 209 and 200 yds.. just saying he didnt have to shoulder the load
look this post is to prove that sage, though a fine qb, makes mistakes too..
personally im not worried, gary knows who is, and will put, the best qb out there and il cheer for them.. and i think it will be schaub
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
We are fine at QB and there is no controversy. Schaub is the starter and Sage is showing the league that he can start for most clubs as well. All parties are enjoying the win-win situation, save for a couple of stragglers.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
thinking about it...i hate this thread!
we should be enjoying this run not arguing about qb's again... same ole texansfans
QFT..thus the fire
GP
Go Texans!
Houston Frog says I am only interested in forcing everyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you check HIS last few posts on this thread...he continues to hammer away, trying to prove me wrong; trying to say HE is right. He's just as dogmatic as I am, and he thinks that throwing some stats out there is going to sway the jury for a conviction.
I'm not going to stop saying it: I like this team better when Sage is starting and has a chance to go the distance in a game.
The only stats I follow are the W-L stats, and we're rapidly approaching Sage's 4th win...which will match Schaub's win total in 11 tries.
4-7
3-0
David Carr had a few good stats, IIRC, but it was not necessarily indicative of translating into W's.
Just as a lot of you rag the media for parroting each other on the VY-RB-Mario situation for the past 1.5 years, I see a lot of similar behavior from posters on this board: "Sage is a great backup," or "Sure am glad to have a great backup like Sage."
They are BOTH backups, and one backup (IMO) is looking like more of a starter than the other.
You can't give me 2 or 3 seasons worth of Schaub as a starter to really convince me that Schaub is the better QB. I have THIS season to go by, and I don't like what I see in Schaub. So sue me.
I'm not going to stop saying it: I like this team better when Sage is starting and has a chance to go the distance in a game.
The only stats I follow are the W-L stats, and we're rapidly approaching Sage's 4th win...which will match Schaub's win total in 11 tries.
4-7
3-0
David Carr had a few good stats, IIRC, but it was not necessarily indicative of translating into W's.
Just as a lot of you rag the media for parroting each other on the VY-RB-Mario situation for the past 1.5 years, I see a lot of similar behavior from posters on this board: "Sage is a great backup," or "Sure am glad to have a great backup like Sage."
They are BOTH backups, and one backup (IMO) is looking like more of a starter than the other.
You can't give me 2 or 3 seasons worth of Schaub as a starter to really convince me that Schaub is the better QB. I have THIS season to go by, and I don't like what I see in Schaub. So sue me.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
If it makes you feel better, keep trying. There are multiple people in this thread that have hammered you because of your random insistence to look blindly at our team as a whole and even evaluate the QB position objectively. I have stated multiple times that both guys have done a bang up job. My job isn't to be right, it is to actually point out the realistic stats and look objectively at the QB position. You have made up stuff about the stats, you have ignored objective posts, you have made up stuff about players like Anderson. Again, the difference between you and the rest of us is that we aren't raving about one player in order to make him better. We are counteracting a bandwagon approach that refuses to look at how well we are doing with both and that there shouldn't be a controversy. Go look at my first post and look at your response. You can't objectively look at anything because you just want to beat your chest. Let me remind you.
Me. complimenting both:
You beating your chest:
If this is how you act, then you will get these responses. Sorry.
Fox
Rookie
I'm still in the camp that Schaub is our starting QB heading into next season, and that Sage is a great back-up who is worth every cent we pay him. I think comparing W-L records is a little unfair based on this year alone since Schaub was missing this teams biggest offensive weapon for 7 of his 11 starts, and wins and losses have quite a bit more to do with how the entire team plays and who you are playing than it does how one individual performs. Pulling out the W-L's as the main argument for Sage to be our starter is reminiscent of the Vinsanity followers blindly buying into the "He doesn't play that great, but he just wins," dogma.
Bottom line is we have two quarterbacks who are very capable of winning a lot of games in this league. Schaub's our starter right now, but if this season is any indication of his ability to stay healthy, Sage will be equally important to this team.
Where it gets interesting for me is if Sage plays great and we beat the Colts and the Jags in competitive games. If that happens, especially the beating the Colts part, I'd like to see at least a camp competition for the starting spot next year. I did like to see all the attention Sage was getting from his team mates at the end of the game Thursday. It was obvious to me that he is highly admired by his team, and that says a lot about him as a leader.
Bottom line is we have two quarterbacks who are very capable of winning a lot of games in this league. Schaub's our starter right now, but if this season is any indication of his ability to stay healthy, Sage will be equally important to this team.
Where it gets interesting for me is if Sage plays great and we beat the Colts and the Jags in competitive games. If that happens, especially the beating the Colts part, I'd like to see at least a camp competition for the starting spot next year. I did like to see all the attention Sage was getting from his team mates at the end of the game Thursday. It was obvious to me that he is highly admired by his team, and that says a lot about him as a leader.
The thing about it, is that in January of '06, when the Texans confirmed their desire to continue on with the David Carr experiment, & when we were going over what a "Denver Style offense" needed out of the QB position to be successful, it was pretty much accepted that we didn't need a H.O.F. ProBowler at the QB position.
We needed someone who was calm under pressure, understands the game, and willing to sacrifice his body(& stat line) in order to make a play, and give us a chance to win.
Alot of us saw that in Sage from the first preseason game, and when we were in the hunt for a QB(after the obvious failure of the mitten man) many of us would have preferred to stay with Sage, instead of overpaying an over the hill free agent, or overspending ourselves to make a move in the draft to acquire a QB through the draft.
But we gave up two second round picks to acquire Matt Schaub. Weather you think that was too much, or a bargain, you've got to agree that was pretty expensive. Especially considering the contract we gave Schaub, in contrast to the what we are paying for Sage.
Now, I'm thrilled that Sage has had this opportunity to show the NFL what he can do. & I'm pleased that he's doing well.
It would be nice, if we could keep both Sage & Schuab, even though I think we were more generous than we needed to be, I think Matt will be a fine NFL QB, and he'll take us as far as this team can go.
But Sage Rosenfels is proving himself to be a rare commodity in this NFL.
Who is going to start for Baltimore in '08?? Chicago?? Miami?? Kansas City?? Philly?? Atlanta?? Carolina?? SF??
Because of Sage Rosenfels, we may, for the very first time, be in the drivers seat when the offseason rolls around, and on the good side of trade talks with other teams.
It would be great to be able to keep Sage & Matt, but wouldn't it be nice to have Chester Taylor in our backfield?? or Julius Jones?? Kenny Watson?? Jerious Norwood??
Or what would you think if we could trade Sage Rosenfels & Darius Walker for Ed Reed??
We needed someone who was calm under pressure, understands the game, and willing to sacrifice his body(& stat line) in order to make a play, and give us a chance to win.
Alot of us saw that in Sage from the first preseason game, and when we were in the hunt for a QB(after the obvious failure of the mitten man) many of us would have preferred to stay with Sage, instead of overpaying an over the hill free agent, or overspending ourselves to make a move in the draft to acquire a QB through the draft.
But we gave up two second round picks to acquire Matt Schaub. Weather you think that was too much, or a bargain, you've got to agree that was pretty expensive. Especially considering the contract we gave Schaub, in contrast to the what we are paying for Sage.
Now, I'm thrilled that Sage has had this opportunity to show the NFL what he can do. & I'm pleased that he's doing well.
It would be nice, if we could keep both Sage & Schuab, even though I think we were more generous than we needed to be, I think Matt will be a fine NFL QB, and he'll take us as far as this team can go.
But Sage Rosenfels is proving himself to be a rare commodity in this NFL.
Who is going to start for Baltimore in '08?? Chicago?? Miami?? Kansas City?? Philly?? Atlanta?? Carolina?? SF??
Because of Sage Rosenfels, we may, for the very first time, be in the drivers seat when the offseason rolls around, and on the good side of trade talks with other teams.
It would be great to be able to keep Sage & Matt, but wouldn't it be nice to have Chester Taylor in our backfield?? or Julius Jones?? Kenny Watson?? Jerious Norwood??
Or what would you think if we could trade Sage Rosenfels & Darius Walker for Ed Reed??
Maddict5
Hall of Fame
chester taylor- i wouldnt do it but i see what you're thinking
julius jones-1) yeah that romo guy sure does stink. they'll be desperate
2) julius is a fa anyway
kenny watson-1)carson palmer?
2)kenny watson wtf? you want to give away the best backup qb in the league for kenny watson? thunderkyss casserly anyone?
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
Sage is not trade bait he is the franchise right now, Schaub is sceduled for surgery so it appears we have a very capable qb to start. All you trade sage guys need to look at it like trade schaub. can we get what we paid for him and if so I say do it. I do not think schaub is holding his value very well. Right now we are lucky not to be miami or San Fran or thr Ravens. We have a team that has heart. and where did they get it. I believe Sage has a lot to do with that. Do not try to throw the guy wh has stepped up the most from the bench under the bus. He is playing as good as he possibly can right now and I am thankful we are getting points on the board.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Sorry but I have seen many years of Sage playing. He is only "okay". His days in Miami, along with his days here in Houston has shown me that he is a backup. He is usually good for about 200 yards and and about 30 passing attempts for a game he starts. Sage does good as long as the running game is chugging along nicely and defenses can't tee off on him passing.
If Sage goes and starts for a team they will be mediocre as long as all of the pieces around him are working properly (The running game, and protection, and the defense giving him good field position). He cannot shoulder an entire team and win by himself week in and week out. It's just not going to happen with Sage and this is why he's a backup.
With Schaub there is definitely not enough evidence to show either, and people who are trying to convince you that Schaub is a bust are just trying to do like the media and have the first right opinion. I see certain posters always trying to pat themselves on the back around here for their prior posts saying "Mario was good" or "Carr was bad". There's just not enough evidence really of what Schaub can or cannot do on an offense. He has been hurt twice this season on some brutal shots. It happens. Next season will be what I consider his "sophmore" season, and we should really see some improvement (Maybe even considerable improvement) if Schaub is who we think he will be.
But saying that Schaub is nothing more than a backup is just silly and has way too much "jump the gun". People saying that Sage is great and should be a starter, have a very bad longterm memory, and are only thinking about his last 3 starts (2 of which have been against very below average defenses).
Besides that, this probably won't even be an issue come next season if we address the O-line in any way shape or form. I have a feeling that Mr. Schaub will benefit a lot more from having more than 1.3 seconds to read a defense and make a decision.
Truth!
I just found this thread and had to go thru 4 pages before someone finally said the real reason why Sage didn't start the final 2-3 games of last year. Sage broke his hand trying to make a tackle on a special teams play - a blocked FG I think.
Oh, and with that injury there goes your "Sage is not fragile" theory right out the window.
The smart thing to do is keep them both. Any player can get hurt at any time. We are in a most excellent position when our backup QB can run the offense without much drop-off in effectiveness.
Unless and until we have a third QB who can also come in and run the offense effectively, we don't let go of our insurance policy. To do anything else flies in the face of common sense.
GlassHalfFull
Hall of Fame
I posted this on another Sage thread earlier today, but feel it is worth repeating on this one:
I have read and watched the Sage threads the last couple of weeks without commenting. Mainly because I have been disgusted with the back and forth crap that has been posted. I want to go on record with the following:
I have been thrilled to see Sage come in and play so well. Thank God we have him and he has been able to perform and get wins the last couple of games.
But I see absolutely no reason to trash Schaub, just because you like what you have seen from Sage. Can't we be happy with our QB situation? It sure is a heck of a lot better than it was last year. Just because you like one player over another, there is NO REASON to villify the other. They are both Texans and I, for one, am glad to have both of them on the team.
I have read and watched the Sage threads the last couple of weeks without commenting. Mainly because I have been disgusted with the back and forth crap that has been posted. I want to go on record with the following:
I have been thrilled to see Sage come in and play so well. Thank God we have him and he has been able to perform and get wins the last couple of games.
But I see absolutely no reason to trash Schaub, just because you like what you have seen from Sage. Can't we be happy with our QB situation? It sure is a heck of a lot better than it was last year. Just because you like one player over another, there is NO REASON to villify the other. They are both Texans and I, for one, am glad to have both of them on the team.
So which one of those stud QBs finally saved that franchise??
Or maybe it wasn't a QB problem??
That depends on who the coach is.
Some coaches play the best guy. Period.
Example: Do you really think Derek Anderson is making more money than Brady Quinn??
Derek Anderson is making the NFL minimum.
Some have reported that Quinn signed for $7 mil guaranteed money; somewhere in the 20 mil neighborhood total money.
Yet Quinn sits.
And WILL CONTINUE TO SIT as long as Derek plays lights out like he's doing now. Big money contract be damned.
This bickering is pointless. Lord Schaub will be our QB next season and we will crush the AFC South in one swift stroke!
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Why are you trying to make me throw Sage under a bus when that is not what I'm trying to do.
I can garuntee you that Miami and Houston have both seen that Sage Rosenfels is a quality BACKUP and really not too much more. This is my opinion, but if you look at his numbers, and the kind of games he has, you can tell that he is a decent game manager (somewhat) who will make costly mistakes (Interceptions) if you force him to air out the ball, or complete a lot of passes. He's not making "rookie" mistakes or any of that nonsense, that is just the type of player he is. Somebody who is good for insurance, but not the guy you want to see taking 80% of the offensive snaps in a season.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your statement, but I'm guessing is that it's not Sage's fault that Miami can't see what talent they had, and Houston is making the same mistake.
That statement is pretty much false because Sage started in at least 4 or 5 Dolphins games in his career and was mediocre at best. Like I've said before, he is a career backup. He can come in and win a few games if you need it, but he cannot strap up a team like a backpack and carry them to a playoff berth. He gives up too many interceptions, and really is a lot looser with the ball than most OC's like. And HC's. And QB Coaches. The fact that he has won 3 of his starts here, while being very good, really doesn't mean much to me, as 2 of 3 starts we were favored to win any (The TB game was very impressive).
But no, I don't think there will be a QB controversey except the one that will be maintained by the people who are never satisfied with how a Houston team is doing, and will always demand change with no research or knowledge of what they are demanding. We see it time and time again, and I think with Kubiak and Smith making the decisions I am perfectly fine with what their evaluations of talent are and why they are making the moves they do.
I'm just saying you can't use what Sage did in Miami as proof of anything, since there hasn't been a successful QB in Miami in a decade.
He's smart, he's poised, and has the ability to win within the context of a team. Which is much better than half the starters in the league today.
My argument, is that he's good trade bait, and I believe there are several GMs who are looking at Sage right now, and thinking about next year.
I doubt anyone will sign him as their starter, but they'll sign him with the intent of letting him compete for a starting job, which is better than what we will offer him.
Gee... that sounds like Ben Rothlisberger, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tavaris Jackson, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Jay Cutler, & David Garrard.
He's not Peyton Manning(who will throw 6 INTs in a game from time to time), Tom Brady, or Bret Farve.
That's fine, I'd like to have that type of QB, but it's not necessary for a running football team.
I know I wish he was taking 100% of our snaps last year, and I bet there are several teams who'd like him to take most of their snaps this year.
My statement was simply to point out that no QB was successful in Miami, so you can't say that Sage is a back-up based on what he did in Miami.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Well said and a point being made over and over by many.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Um, no, you're completely wrong. Miami hasn't had any successful QB's because they haven't had one QB with any sort of rock solid starter-material talent. Saying you can't fault Sage for being on a bad team, makes me think David Carr wasn't at fault either
There could be, because there are a lot of very very stupid GM's in the league who have made terrible decisions throughout there career. Anybody that is willing to give up the amount of picks the Texans would demand for Sage (Because he's still under contract, and any team who would want them would have to actually trade picks for him) is not that bright really.
This makes no sense. Again, if any team is willing to try to get him from us this off season or next, they will have to give up quite a bit to get him. He'll have to be their starter, or else they will have traded at least 2 picks (or a really high one) to get a backup?
Pennington and Jackson both have pretty much sucked the entire year. Phillip Rivers is woefully underperforming with the talent around him, and Eli is making ridiculous mistakes in a lot of his games. His cupcake schedule is whats making him look good. Jason Campbell is decidedly bleh. Ben Roethlisberger, haha. I'm sorry but Big Ben is a way better QB than Sage is due to the fact that he has a decent gun, is fairly accurate, and aside from 1 year, has never put up anything really worse than a 1.5 TD - 1 INT ration. Sage could never claim that. And the jury is still out on Jay Cutler, but for his rookie season, the kid is looking alright, but it's still his rookie season. Seriously though, aside from PIT and DEN most all of those teams are having QB issues of one sort or another, and would probably look to sign Sage if we were giving him away for next to nothing.
The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.
Since you seem to take the TD:INT ratio very seriously, here's a question for ya.
12 TD to 8 INT
or
9 TD to 9 INT
Which would you prefer?
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Well considering the 8 ints were in less than half the games the other one played, it would all depend now wouldn't it and that is the rub. That and the fact that this is a b.s. argument considering the need for 2 QBs and the number of guys hurt every year. That and the other numbers thrown out. But per usual the circle will continue as many decide to keep smearing one in order to make themselves feel better concerning their argument. Why can't you enjoy both without playing eraser accounting with stats?
dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Here is the funny part. The only reason I ever joined these arguments was because TexanRed and GP...and sometimes you went on a 2 week bing on Sage is the man threads while putting down Schaub. I rarely have seen anyone say that they didn't like Sage last year or that Sage hasn't been a good play for us this year. Yet I continuously see people make up stats, thow out comparisons that don't fit and get game amnesia. The only argument I have ever seen against Sage is that he was on 2 other bad teams that tried him as a starter and he never made it. Which did happen. I've also seen people counteract the Schaub arguments about play since Sage's TOs have been high and his yardage lower. I love having the guy here. I just love having Schaub too and am trying to keep people straight on fantasy vs. reality concerning his games. That's it. I should probably slip out because it becomes a circle of nothing after awhile and my point all along..since my first post in this thread...is that we are playing well..Defense and Mario are helping us a ton which counteracts losing points off TOs. We are getting steady play throughout. We should be happy that it is happening and we have 2 really quality guys. I just wish Matt had the running game we have had lately and had Andre the whole time since he was 3-1 with him. I'm just happy to be a fighting 7-7.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
I'm not trying to slander him like I hate the guy, because I don't. But when I say that you don't want to see him taking 100% of the snaps this season, that's just how I beleive it is. Sage is not as good as Schaub when it comes to:
1) Reading a defense in under 3 seconds
2) Pocket presence and ability to see where the blitz is coming
To me, this means that Schaub is my guy when comparing the two because Sage has had many years of experience playing for teams in a backup capacity, and Schaub has not. Schaub looks like the better QB, even from here, because of what he has had to deal with in his starts and games.
When it was announced that Sage would be starting the games vs TB, and DEN, were you happy? Did that make you think we had a better chance of winning? I didn't, because I know that Sage is liable for a few INT's a game for the most part. Yes, he does have a few games where he does not turn it over, but those games are not the norm for him.
I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but to me, he's just not what you want in a QB that will be starting for your franchise for years. He would be a stopgap at best if he were starting, and a decent backup any other time.
Nobody's trying to say that Sage is the worst thing to happen to the QB position since Chris Weinke, but I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.
If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.
Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.
not to split hairs, but Schaub is 3-2 with AJ. Remember we lost back to back games against Cleveland and Tennesse, virtually extinquishing our chances of going to the playoffs, and AJ was in for both games.
most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.
So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
NFL GM's, Coaches, players, not you, etc etc. Thanks for trying to turn it into an insult tho
Thats right, and that's pretty much because as long as Schaub is protected well he does better with long pass plays, gets more yards per pass attempt, and is not as old or experienced, but still puts up numbers that are just as good. His ceiling is way higher, and I think his tools are much better too.
But again, my opinion doesn't matter, so I don't even see why you're trying to convince me otherwise
junior
Waterboy
i hate "pocket presence" because i dont know what that means. i think people really mean pocket awareness. having a presence in the pocket is a bad description.
and just on numbers this year
schaub has a much higher ratio of sacks to pass attempts than sage does,
sage has over 100% better td %
sage does have a 33+% higher int %,
his % of 20+ yard plays is pretty even
and his % of 40+ plays is slightly better than schaub.
also sage has only played with 1 other team he never played for washington. he had the same number of starts that schaub had in atlanta.
their career numbers would tell you that schaub is sacked at a much higher % than sage has. so in my opinion the pocket awareness actually would go to sage on numbers alone. they both make mistakes and have a problem keeping hold of the ball when hit.
so like i said in the beginning of this thread sage is as good as schaub. everything points to this except opinions, but as of right now you cant say that schaub has done better than sage, but you can say that sage has done better than schaub.
but make no mistake about it schaub will start next year as long as hes healthy there are 47 million reasons for that. but 2 more wins could really hurt this team in the long run.
we still wont make the playoffs and then the fan based could be split down the middle on this if schaub gets off to a slow start next year. but if we keep winning no one will care who is back there, i know i wont.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
You mean the Tenn game where he was 3 for 5 for 34 yards and had to leave. You are kidding right?He left with an even ballgame. This is the same stats pencil whipping that GP was trying with Anderson.
This was the same thing many of us said after people said Carr whould be Sage's backup for a 6th year here, yet it didn't matter. I find it quite funny that it was still a debate after 5 years but a guy plays 11 games and people are already turning. There is nothing in his stats that suggests he should be being treated this way. It all comes down to a bandwagon mentality of people who just like to complain. If Schaub fails next year I'm all for the change but many of us are shaking our head in disbelief that it has come about for no reason(AGAIN, GO TO PAGE 4 AND LOOK AT THE RUNDOWN) after 11 games.
Let's see.
Action/ResultWe change our QB, we're a better team.
ConclusionQB was part of the problem.
Action/REsultThey change their QB, they continue to get worse.
ConclusionQB not necessarily the problem.
Let's flip the script. Let's say we were looking for a QB. We've got our eye on a 3-year back-up whose never won a game he started. Looks promising, but not proven.
We give up 2 second round picks, and trade down 4 spots in the first round. We pay this unproven career back-up like a starter, and we announce him as our starting QB.
What does that make us??
Proving my point.
my point, with mentioning the guys I did.
Though they are starters, you can't put the ball in their hand and expect them to win the game. Nothing against them as QBs, but you're asking for trouble if you expect them to avg 30+ atts/game.
If you want to believe Schaub has a stronger arm than Sage... you go right ahead. I've not seen it.
I also don't see why you think Matt Schaub(with a 1:1TD/Int ratio) would through less INTs as a starter than Sage Rosenfels(with a 3:2 TD/Int ratio).
GP
Go Texans!
I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.
LOL.
YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.
The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.
You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.
If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....
Chance_C
All Pro
Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.
He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.
And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.
Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.
But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."
He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.
And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.
Maybe that's what he was talking about
Hervoyel
BUENO!
We all have an opinion about this, even those of us just lurking and not speaking out. Mine is that the primary difference in the play of the two QB's has been affected by the presence (or lack of) a running game and the presence (or lack of) Andre Johnson. That along with improved play by the defense towards the end of the season (just like last year) has made the difference for us.
AJ has an obvious effect on the running game. That's indisputable.
Week 1 & 2 we have both a running game and AJ. Matt Schaub looks good and everyone is happy.
Andre Johnson nets 142 yards and 120 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 109 yards and 119 yards respectively.
The defense has no trouble holding down two fairly bad teams.
With AJ to account for and a credible running game the Texans go 2-0.
Weeks 3-5 we lose AJ and Ahman Green starts his in and out of the lineup thing due to his knee. Nobody respects Andre Davis and Kevin Walter at this point. Ron Dayne is off to his usual slow start and Samkon Gado is useless. The wheels start to come off.
Andre Johnson is out of the picture.
The Texans run for 40, 87, and 74 yards respectively.
The defense lets the Colts, Falcons, and to some extent the Dolphins go off on them.
With Schaub now on plenty of film and all of his best weapons (at this point) on the shelf the Texans go 1-2.
We are 3-2 on the season at this time. People are still happy albeit frustrated at the injuries we've sustained. You don't see anybody crying about how Schaub has played. People seem to understand that without a running game and AJ the Texans are a different team
Weeks 6-8 The competition gets tougher while the Texans continue to lose players and struggle to run the ball.
Still no Andre Johnson but others are doing their best to pick up the slack
The Texans run for 61, 39, and 115 yards respectively.
The defense allows all three of these teams to bust 30 points.
During this stretch the "Legend of Sage" is born as he puts up good stats in Jacksonville during garbage time to contrast with a bad game from Matt Schaub and engineers a 29 point fourth quarter against Tennessee after putting us in huge hole following Matt Schaub's injury. A seed of doubt gets planted. Schaub gets hurt again at San Diego and suddenly he's fragile. You might think that the Texans ran the ball "ok" at San Diego unless you note that they were far behind at the half and everybody in the NFL will let you try and run the ball when they have you by 32 points. The Texans go 0-3.
The Texans are 3-5 at this point and I'm starting to see people turn on Matt Schaub like that number 8 makes him David Carr by proxy.
Weeks 9-11 The Texans play two games with the bye week in the middle. Ron Dayne finally starts to get in gear against a bad run defense while AJ returns.
Andre Johnson returns against New Orleans and puts up 120 yards.
The Texans run for 178 and 103 yards.
The defense hold a bad Raiders team down and makes a statement against the Saints (and Saint Reggie)
The Texans go 2-0 during this stretch.
Weeks 12-13 The Texans lose a couple of games we all thought they'd win and I blow a gasket. A few board members decide they've seen enough of Matt Schaub.
Andre Johnson gets 37 and 116 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 77 and 119 yards respectively.
The defense plays ok but can't take over either game.
Against Cleveland the Texans get nothing from the running game and AJ has a rare bad day. Cleveland's defense has an answer for him and we get shut down. A few more people start mumbling about starting Sage. Then against Tennessee "fragile" Matt gets his left shoulder separated in the first quarter and Sage takes over. Despite having 119 yards rushing from the ground game and AJ getting his hundred yards the Texans still lose by 8 after leading at the half by 3.
The Texans follow their 2-0 run with an 0-2 run. This season is kind of feast or famine for us.
Weeks 14-15 The Texans win a pair we all probably thought they would lose and suddenly Sage is our starter
Andre Johnson gets 82 and 86 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 71 and 158 respectively.
The defense allows 14 and 13 points respectively.
The Texans are 7-7 at this point in the season and for some reason we're still trying to find things to argue with each other about.
Matt vs. Sage is in full swing now and for the life of me I can't see why this is even being discussed. This "debate" is a wash. The differences between them are primarily things apart from QB play. When we run the ball we tend to win more. When Andre Johnson is on the field we tend to have a better chance of running the ball well. When we don't turn over the ball non-stop we tend to win more. When the defense takes over the game we tend to win more.
Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.
AJ has an obvious effect on the running game. That's indisputable.
Week 1 & 2 we have both a running game and AJ. Matt Schaub looks good and everyone is happy.
Andre Johnson nets 142 yards and 120 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 109 yards and 119 yards respectively.
The defense has no trouble holding down two fairly bad teams.
With AJ to account for and a credible running game the Texans go 2-0.
Weeks 3-5 we lose AJ and Ahman Green starts his in and out of the lineup thing due to his knee. Nobody respects Andre Davis and Kevin Walter at this point. Ron Dayne is off to his usual slow start and Samkon Gado is useless. The wheels start to come off.
Andre Johnson is out of the picture.
The Texans run for 40, 87, and 74 yards respectively.
The defense lets the Colts, Falcons, and to some extent the Dolphins go off on them.
With Schaub now on plenty of film and all of his best weapons (at this point) on the shelf the Texans go 1-2.
We are 3-2 on the season at this time. People are still happy albeit frustrated at the injuries we've sustained. You don't see anybody crying about how Schaub has played. People seem to understand that without a running game and AJ the Texans are a different team
Weeks 6-8 The competition gets tougher while the Texans continue to lose players and struggle to run the ball.
Still no Andre Johnson but others are doing their best to pick up the slack
The Texans run for 61, 39, and 115 yards respectively.
The defense allows all three of these teams to bust 30 points.
During this stretch the "Legend of Sage" is born as he puts up good stats in Jacksonville during garbage time to contrast with a bad game from Matt Schaub and engineers a 29 point fourth quarter against Tennessee after putting us in huge hole following Matt Schaub's injury. A seed of doubt gets planted. Schaub gets hurt again at San Diego and suddenly he's fragile. You might think that the Texans ran the ball "ok" at San Diego unless you note that they were far behind at the half and everybody in the NFL will let you try and run the ball when they have you by 32 points. The Texans go 0-3.
The Texans are 3-5 at this point and I'm starting to see people turn on Matt Schaub like that number 8 makes him David Carr by proxy.
Weeks 9-11 The Texans play two games with the bye week in the middle. Ron Dayne finally starts to get in gear against a bad run defense while AJ returns.
Andre Johnson returns against New Orleans and puts up 120 yards.
The Texans run for 178 and 103 yards.
The defense hold a bad Raiders team down and makes a statement against the Saints (and Saint Reggie)
The Texans go 2-0 during this stretch.
Weeks 12-13 The Texans lose a couple of games we all thought they'd win and I blow a gasket. A few board members decide they've seen enough of Matt Schaub.
Andre Johnson gets 37 and 116 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 77 and 119 yards respectively.
The defense plays ok but can't take over either game.
Against Cleveland the Texans get nothing from the running game and AJ has a rare bad day. Cleveland's defense has an answer for him and we get shut down. A few more people start mumbling about starting Sage. Then against Tennessee "fragile" Matt gets his left shoulder separated in the first quarter and Sage takes over. Despite having 119 yards rushing from the ground game and AJ getting his hundred yards the Texans still lose by 8 after leading at the half by 3.
The Texans follow their 2-0 run with an 0-2 run. This season is kind of feast or famine for us.
Weeks 14-15 The Texans win a pair we all probably thought they would lose and suddenly Sage is our starter
Andre Johnson gets 82 and 86 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 71 and 158 respectively.
The defense allows 14 and 13 points respectively.
The Texans are 7-7 at this point in the season and for some reason we're still trying to find things to argue with each other about.
Matt vs. Sage is in full swing now and for the life of me I can't see why this is even being discussed. This "debate" is a wash. The differences between them are primarily things apart from QB play. When we run the ball we tend to win more. When Andre Johnson is on the field we tend to have a better chance of running the ball well. When we don't turn over the ball non-stop we tend to win more. When the defense takes over the game we tend to win more.
Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.
1) Schaub has taken a lot more hits than Sage. Anybody can suffer a concussion from the kind of cheapshot he took. Anybody can get a dislocated shoulder when they have a 300 lb man pound them into the ground. In general Sage has gotten better protection than Schaub, and, in general, the QBs have had the most time when teams have had to respect play-action. In no game has Schaub experienced the luxurious pass protection that Sage got against the Broncos.
2) Schaub takes longer drops than Sage. But the gameplan also hasn't been the same with the two. For example, against the Tacks, for whatever reason, the coaches had Schaub taking 5-7 step drops, getting him killed in the process.
3) Schaub is essentially a rookie. All rookie QBs are going to have ups and downs, but Schaub has had far more ups than downs.
4) Sage has done the same thing in every game he's played. Against the Bucs, he hung onto the ball too long and fumbled. Last game he forced a throw into triple coverage that resulted in the Broncos' only TD. Even his incredible 4th quarter performance against the Tacks was necessitated by his earlier errors that resulted in 9 points, which could have easily been more. At least two of Schaub's interceptions weren't really his fault.
5) Sage has the benefit more than Schaub of having AJ and a running game.
6) Schaub is 4 years younger than Sage. He has more potential than Sage in the sense that what you see from Sage now is what you're going to get down the road. We don't know with Schaub. He could get worse, like Carr, but it's more likely he'll get better.
I'm not bashing Sage by countering your points. Their play has been pretty even in my opinion. But there will be no QB controversy in the coaches' minds when TC starts (or in mind for that matter). Now, in the (please, no) event that Schaub does regress or continues to get injured, we can thank our lucky stars we have Sage.
Exactly.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
WHOOPS, LMAOI guess you can't even keep up with you own diarrhea of the mouth...LOL..seriously, please stop. Considering Couch was gone from there in 2003, Anderson was picked up off waivers last year and played this year. Your circles are running into each other. Maybe you should remember what you decided to ramble about since you don't read and only spew. You have lost any semblance of respect you might have had after this. Go fight over something else.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
THANK YOU!7 pages and it is still the point that many of us have been fighting for. Heck some of the people turning on Schaub don't even remember what they wrote 3 pages ago.
GP
Go Texans!
Was just now watching the Browns game and remembered that I did mention DEREK Anderson several days ago--I've slept since then. With us having a WR named Anderson, I was confused on the issue. My bad. I CAN apologize, by the way.
But I won't apologize about how I feel about this whole deal.
I finally get to see us string together some nice wins, without Ahman Green and with an even more depleted oline, and it's been nothing but "Can't wait until Schaub is back!"
Maybe Sage isn't the long-term answer, but I seriously doubt that Matt Schaub is it either if we want to size them up side-by-side. Matt has the brains and instinct, but I'm not so sure he has the endurance and durability to last. Call me a jerk for saying it, but that's how I feel.
We'll win one of the next two, pushing us to an 8-8 record. Four of those wins were quarterbacked by Sage and four of them by Matt--But I would def argue that the Miami win was by Kris Brown's leg more than anything else. I want us to win, and we need to see which guy is the better starter for us...that would involve a lot of factors: 1. Schaub allowing an open competition in camp, 2. Kubiak and others permitting it to happen or asking for it to happen, 3. McNair looking at the possibility of having wasted draft picks and money when he had a potential starter all along, thus not endearing Kubiak to him due to the previous QB mis-calculation by Kubiak, 4. Sage even desiring to stay at all, possibly looking at asking for a trade to a team who would give him an open competition for the starting job.
I don't really enjoy the wins so much anymore because I'm perplexed as to what the long-term answer is for this team: So many holes, and now the QB spot (for me) is a mess, as well. It's a good mess, like you guys say, but it's just one more element of surprise that I'm tired of. I want stability and the comfort of the "known commodity," of having roster depth spots NAILED DOWN. Until then, we're just living on borrowed time, IMO.
Congrats to us, we've won...and we looked pretty good on NFLN...but are we for real, or are we just pretending again? Are we the trap game where we only win when teams don't take us seriously?
If Sage has a good game vs. Indy, what will that say? If Sage helps us win convincingly vs. the Jags AND the Colts, what does that mean to you? Is it a mere "Good job, Sage The Backup..." or is it "Uhh, well...ummm..."
b0ng
Bad Hombre
That's a very well thought out post, and it contained a few ounces of humble.
We could very well be pretending. But we're pretending that we are better and more talented than we've ever been. Being .500 this late in the season is a first, so I at least see improvement over the long haul. I think that even if we lose in horrific fashion I've seen enough to be pleasantly surprised and a little more excited about next season than I was this season.
If Sage helps us win convincingly and his body of work that he puts in is really quality work then why not hold a competition? I trust the coaches opinions though and I'm not going to get all mad and think somebody was screwed if Schaub starts. It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit because I think he has much more talent than Sage, but that's me. I'm not going to be angry if Sage turns in quality performances, but I'm not going to just completely write Schaub off as a complete failure before I see his second season starting.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
The previous post to mine was three hours ago. There's not a doubt in my mind that this thread would be busy as hell up if Sage had carved up Indy today. Instead he had the exact same kind of day that the "Start Sage" crew point to Matt Schaub having and because of that we get silence.
Is this nonsense finally over? Do we now all understand the meaning of "Career Backup"? The "Cody Carlson 2.0 experiment" should be over now.
Is this nonsense finally over? Do we now all understand the meaning of "Career Backup"? The "Cody Carlson 2.0 experiment" should be over now.
Not if you saw the game thread... Hell we had Schaub bashers coming out of the woodwork in "defense" of Sage.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
The stats don't necessarily back it up, but it feels like Sage throws a lot of back breaking picks...
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Mmmmmmmmmmmhm.
Where's the start Sage crowd again? GP, what were the others? Can't remember. I'm sure some of you dumbos will continue to argue for him.
Where's the start Sage crowd again? GP, what were the others? Can't remember. I'm sure some of you dumbos will continue to argue for him.
No need to get personal and stuff. lol
And, for the record, I'm in the "keep them both" camp
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Sage has played well, Schaub is still somewhat of an unknown because of his injuries.
The smart move is to keep both.
I wouldn't want them to compete for the starters job in camp, I think we need to give Schaub some security in his job and if he fails we have very good insurance.
The smart move is to keep both.
I wouldn't want them to compete for the starters job in camp, I think we need to give Schaub some security in his job and if he fails we have very good insurance.